Introduction
Why are we doing a podcast on the topic of church? Because being an individual Christian and a corporate Christian aren’t two separate entities. When it comes down to it, there’s nothing more important to talk about and work to get right in life for the Christian. Join us as explore the meaning behind the name of the show, who it’s for and why.
Transcript
Hi, I’m Mike Fleming. And I am Barb Kjos. And this is the Finding Healthy Church podcast.
This is a podcast where we are on a journey of finding healthy church, that’s why it’s named that. We welcome you along, this is our first episode. And so in the first episode, we’re gonna do some foundation layering, or foundation laying, I should say.
We’re gonna introduce ourselves, share a little bit about ourselves, how we met, where we live, what kind of church life we’re a part of, what kind of church life we may have been a part of in the past. And then we’re gonna talk about what the name of the show is all about.
So why Finding Healthy Church? That seems like an interesting, maybe kind of weird name. But we’re gonna talk about it and unpack that a little bit. So to start off, Barb, can you share a little bit about yourself, your story, why you’re doing a podcast about church?
Okay, well, let’s see. It’s been a long journey. I have been, became a Christian in 1971, 72 actually, and then, but raised in the Catholic tradition most of my life up until then, and then decided to own my Christianity just outside of getting, graduating from college.
And then got married, and my husband Scott and I then went from Portland, Oregon, down to Southern California, where he took a job as a youth director, youth minister at a congregation in Lawndale, California.
And then from there, we continued to find ourselves, trying to figure out, trying to make sense of the scriptures and how that affected our life and our lives with some of our, with a couple of our best friends who we went to college with, another couple.
And Scott and I, Scott and Rich started to read more into scriptures saying, you know, soon Christians look different than just being good old Americans.
And then we started to read things like Bonhoeffer’s cost of discipleship and life together. And from that in 1978, decided to look into what that might look like. And so in 1978, along with a number of other folks, probably about 20 some folks, we started a journey of trying to go through the scriptures and talk about the nature and purpose of the church and what that would look like for us as individuals.
And we came to see that being a Christian, apart from being a member of a local body of Christ, is not sufficient. And that meant to be a part of, that that was the mission, was to join up with other believers and to live into that.
And so we started a congregation that lived out of our, we basically met in our homes, and we came together and lived life in many ways, like the first church in Axe too, and lived locally, lived within 10 minutes walking distance from each other as we could, and have been, and had done that for many years, and that congregation is still going on in Gardena.
Wait, you mean since what year has that come? 1978. That was the year I was born.
Yeah. That’s a long time. Yeah.
And I would have to tell you that I, at the beginning, I was a little bit apprehensive because of the cost of discipleship and what that meant for my life. And it was a journey of coming to terms with that and surrendering to that.
And if it had not been for my husband and his commitment and convictions, I may not have made the decision I made.
Yeah. So are you saying, yeah, right. So you’re saying going from, I think you said good old Americans, to what you feel like are true disciples of Christ.
There’s a cost going from one to the other. Definitely, yes.
What do you think the main costs, like if you define the cost in practical terms, like what things have you had to give up and things like that?
Yeah. The word my, my. The word my, my, my, my. But yeah, there’s a lot of things. I would tell you that I think my, I would say how I was raised, I came from a somewhat affluent, but not necessarily ostentatious life.
My mom was a doctor. My dad was a corporate executive, and we were raised, we went to college prep schools, and kind of was raised to be a part of, you know, upper middle class, upper class, professional life.
And I chose against that, you know, and that was difficult for my parents to understand, obviously, when we bought our first home, we bought it with our best friends.
I think also, because we had a shared household, sharing not only the responsibilities, but the ownership of a household, how you would like it to look, and having to talk through with partners and other couples or other people about, you know, you just don’t get to decide that on your own, you just need to talk through it.
And, you know, sometimes you get your way and sometimes you don’t. I mean, you don’t realize how much we have bought into the independent, individualistic lifestyle and mindset of the world.
Hmm. I’m going to cut it off right there because that is a deep rabbit hole. We could go down big time.
Yep.
And you’re definitely swimming in some pretty radical streams.
Yes.
And we’ll get, I think we’ll, in future episodes, we’re going to get more.
I know.
I’m thinking, I think, oh, should I share that?
Should I not share that?
Yes.
We’ll get into more of that in future episodes of like, okay, why so radical?
Yeah.
Just getting into all those questions.
Yeah.
So I can back it up.
When you ask the question, I think it’s hard to say, well, I’ve had to, you know, it’s about shared life. So I don’t know how you would, that could open up a whole bunch of ideas that people would think of.
Transitioning a little bit to my story. So, when I was in my early 20s, I came across a book called Beyond Radical. And it was a little book, but it was basically talking about exactly what you’re talking about, right?
Like, if God’s purpose is for us to be the church, how are we doing at that, right? And it really shook me. And I would say it quote unquote ruined my life, in a way.
I get it.
You get it?
Yeah, in a good way.
Because yeah, exactly what you’re saying, to be a true disciple, to really be the church of God, there’s a worldly cost to that. So, that started my journey.
I read a lot of books, have been to a lot of types of churches, started going to different churches a lot, started going to church a lot in general.
And through the years have done many different things, like, for example, starting a house church similar to what you have, and ending that house church for different reasons that we’ll probably get into.
Going to all sorts of different denominations, being in relationship with all sorts of different kinds of people. And today, by the way, I live in Ohio, so Barb and I are thousands of miles apart doing this podcast.
But we were brought together because I started reading and writing and created a blog called Finding Healthy Church about this topic, and we connected that way and got to know each other. So I’m sitting in Ohio and gotten to know each other from a long distance away.
But I’ve come sort of full circle now back to attending an organized church while building close-knit community or attempting to build a close-knit community within that experience, within the organized church experience.
And so that’s where my wife and I and our daughter are at right now.
So we’re in…
Barb, this is good because we’re different ages. We are on different coasts. I’m not quite on the East Coast, but we’re far apart.
We’re in different, kind of different cultures. I can tell you for sure, Northeast Ohio and Portland, Oregon are very different.
Right, and just to remind you that Scott and I transitioned back up to Portland in April of last year, along with another family to join up with another family and a couple of families up in Portland to basically start up another congregation, similar to the ones that we have going on down in Gardena up here.
So that’s why we’re here. Up until then, we were in the Gardena area for part of this other congregation for like 45, 50 years.
Yeah, and I think our variety of experiences is gonna go a long way in not only our continued journey and talking on this podcast, but our audience’s journey as well, because we’ll be able to bring quite a bit of perspective from a lot of angles.
And on that note, I want to get into talking about what the name of the show is all about. It’s called Finding Healthy Church. And what I thought we’d do is unpack each word in that title, Finding Healthy in Church.
And I want to start with church. Why are we doing a podcast about church?
There’s a lot of podcasts out there, I think, and other resources about God, theology, being a better disciple, growing spiritually. There’s a lot of resources out there, I found, even like knowing the Bible, et cetera.
You don’t find a ton, at least in my experience, just about the topic of church. But I have felt convicted, and I think you do too, Barb, about this topic, because when you look at the whole biblical story and God’s purpose, is there a more important topic than the reason God created was to create the church?
And in the end of the biblical story, what happens is like a bride and a bridegroom get married. And that bride is the church, right? So we’re preparing for that.
And so that was the conviction I came to in my, I think, 20s was like, is there anything more important to get right?
Right, exactly.
Yeah, I think one of the things for me as we studied was the fact that kind of forget, we forget that so many of the letters in the New Testament were not written to individuals, but were written to congregations, to churches.
And so the words, the exhortations, the encouragements, the reminders were written to a community, a group of people to do those things. And not just, they were not just individuals living it out on my own, that there was some relational connection to the people that the letters were being written to.
And I think because of the fact that we’ve become so individualistic, or in how we think through things or whatever, we forget that there is a connection, there is a profound relationship in the one-to-anotherness that we forget, which we can understand why the church is, I think, something we’re trying to figure out is, well, what does that look like?
What does Healthy Church look like? What are the components to that?
Yeah, and I think as you alluded to earlier, like this idea that someone is a 100 percent Christian and a 50 percent church member, is like completely foreign to God’s purpose and plan and to the biblical story, right?
In other words, you can’t be a quarterback if you aren’t part of a team. Because somebody will say, oh, you’ll see I’m a quarterback. And obviously I’d say, well, what team are you a part of?
So that’s essentially the word church. Why are we doing a podcast about church? Because we think it’s God’s purpose and plan is the church.
And so we want to help as many people as we can, like share in the journeys we continue to have of learning what it means to live out that calling of being his church.
The second word that I want to deal with is the first word in the title, finding. It’s obviously an action verb, so why finding healthy church? Why an action verb and not found healthy church or this is healthy church?
And I think what we really want to express in the show is that even though Barb herself has been on this journey for her whole life, which spans more time than my whole life, that we really don’t arrive completely, right, until we’re in the new creation.
Like, we’re not gonna get to perfection, just like when you try to be healthy in your physical body. Like, you’re never gonna have a perfect physical body, but you’re gonna try to be healthy so you can fulfill the purpose that you’re called to right now.
I think it’s the same with church, right, is we’re on this journey of health. And that journey is we are continuously finding what it means to be and stay healthy with the Lord.
So we don’t claim to have arrived. We haven’t built the perfect church. We’re not a part of the perfect church.
And truth be told, I’ve had more successes than, I’m sorry, reverse, I’ve had more failures than successes.
So I’m not sure if you share that same sentiment, but I definitely do. Yeah, well, we certainly have had our failures in this journey. There’s no doubt.
Yeah, I think you’re right about, this is about finding healthy church, finding, how do you, what do you look for? How do you work towards that?
Where you are with whoever you’re with to figure that out, because they’ll all look different. So it’s kind of like, I can tell you, like now that we have transitioned up here to the Portland area, that we’re trying to find healthy church with the people that we’re with now.
And the foundation might be the same in some ways, but how it’s lived out and fleshed out is very different. And so it takes time to take the time.
Yeah, that’s a great point. I mean, that’s a great point because the look of a congregation, the feel of it, where you’re called to be, whenever you’re called to be there, that changes all the time, right?
New people come, old people go, you come, you go, you know? And so there’s always this continual process going on, just like our bodies change. It’s a living organism.
So yeah, that’s really what we want to communicate in the word finding, right, is that we’re all on a journey. Let’s all go on it together to live our calling for God, and we’re inviting you to come with us in it.
The last word is healthy. So, finding healthy church. Why healthy?
As I mentioned before, I think looking through the lens of healthy versus unhealthy is more productive than looking through the lens of right versus wrong. I have found that to be the case in my experience that people are more open minded when they’re not told they’re wrong, right?
I think we struggle more to accept if someone tells us we’re wrong about something, and we get on the defensive, and our conversations aren’t as good. At least I’ve found that in the conversations that I’ve had in the past.
I’ve always found, like, let’s explore together what’s healthy and unhealthy rather than saying, well, that’s wrong and this is right.
I think also because so many things are situation dependent, right? Like, one thing that you might do in one context might be healthy, and it might be unhealthy in a totally different context with totally different people in a totally different place.
I think about the example, examples in like Paul’s letters, for example, like every letter, almost every letter he wrote was to a specific church with specific things going on and specific people and all these things.
For example, he tells the Ephesian women to not talk in church. Well, it would be a big mistake to say no women should talk in church, right?
But Paul felt like for whatever reason, because he knew that church intimately, he knew what was going on, he knew the exact issues that were happening with those women and men in that church, he felt like in this context, right now in this situation, it would be healthy for those women not to talk right now in the gatherings.
Now, it didn’t mean women shouldn’t talk ever, it didn’t mean they could never talk again, right? It just meant for right now, like until they get their act together, because they were probably doing very unhealthy things in the gathering. They were dominating the meetings, they were, you know, whatever they were doing.
But that’s a great example of like, you can’t be prescriptive in every situation that this is healthy and this is not healthy, right? And so that’s why I think looking through that lens of healthy versus not healthy is so important.
Yeah, I think it’s too, you know, I think you always, it’s not always right or wrong because you don’t know why a person, you have to go through the process of talking through why somebody thinks something or has decided to go a certain way, what has informed their journey.
And then you’re able to talk through it and allow the scriptures to help you figure out, like you said, what’s the better way to go in the situation that we’re in.
And it is the case, I think, we do forget that we are reading somebody else’s mail. However, however, the truths about, that Paul uses about loving one another and what all the one is something that we can look to and say, well, those are wise ways to live, and then take that and own it.
Well, how does that look in the places that we’re living and with the people that we’re with?
Yeah, that’s a good point about somebody else’s mail and you’re only hearing one side of the conversation.
I think a biblical scholar pointed out to me recently, and something I was listening to, that first and second Corinthians are actually second and fourth Corinthians, if you count the letters written back and forth. Because the Corinthians wrote to him first. He writes back, they write back, he writes back.
And so you miss a ton in those books from not knowing, or if you don’t approach them with the knowledge of what they possibly wrote to him first, and he was responding.
So that’s a great point.
So, ultimately, this idea of looking through the lens of healthy versus unhealthy, I think we’re gonna take the approach of not criticizing the specific forms of church, but that doesn’t mean we won’t point out unhealthy things that may apply to certain forms of church.
But that’s just looking at those things specifically and not saying, well, the whole thing is to be thrown away. So, we’re gonna try to look through that.
And we’re also gonna try not to position ourselves like we’re always right about something. So, taking the general posture of being suspicious of ourselves, exploring health together, and hopefully the Lord will reveal things to us as we go.
Yeah, I think one of the things that you and I are on the same page on is the fact that at least I’ve experienced so many folks who are Christians, who say they’re Christians, who are Christians, but have left the body of Christ in terms of membership in a church.
You know, you hear a lot, well, I don’t have to go to church to be a Christian. You know, I don’t have to. And I think what we’re trying to do is help because we see that the church is God’s mission, is to try and help people understand the importance of what it means to be a member of a functioning body of Christ, why that needs to be part of how you live out your life and try to help people figure out why they need to live their life out with that also.
Like you said, not 100% Christian and 50% church member, but 100% and 100%. And how does that affect your whole life, even as an individual?
Yeah, and it really speaks to, like, who this show is for and why.
I think there’s, like, maybe four main types of people that this show will really help.
Number one, as you mentioned, Christians that aren’t currently gathering with the church. So they’re Christians, but they just don’t go to church anymore, whether it’s the pandemic, whether it’s they had a bad experience, or it’s just not the pool of going to whatever church they were going to is not strong enough to get them to get up on Sunday morning or whatever it is.
Or they don’t understand that that’s even a necessary part of how to live your life out as a Christian. So I think for those people, we’ll attempt to help you gain a new perspective on church life and insight into maybe why you’re not motivated to go and what to do about it.
The second group, I think, is Christians that gather with a church but are feeling like there must be something more to their experience.
And this is kind of where you were at back in 1978, right Barb?
Yeah.
And so we’re gonna help kind of take us back there to that point for people that are in that stage and give some insight on what might be missing in the church experience.
And then number three, I think Christians that have been hurt by the church. A lot of times when we get hurt by people in church, we’re like, well, this isn’t even different than the world.
I can get hurt in the world, just like in church. And that’s totally true. And we’re never gonna claim that you’ll never get hurt by church people again, even if you’re in more healthy situations or trying to do things more healthy.
In fact, it might be the opposite, but hopefully we’ll give insight and clarity in maybe how to deal with that better and that we might have the right kind of hurt and the right kind of problems that lead to growth and love in the end.
And then the last group, I think, is Christians in Leadership at Churches. I think that this topic is becoming more and more something that’s coming to the forefront, basically, in Christians’ minds of all kinds.
And I think that they could really serve people in leadership by giving insight into how to help influence their community. Because Christian leaders typically have more influence over what people do than non-leaders.
And so our hope is that this show would serve them by allowing them to then go and influence their community to better live out God’s purpose in a more healthy manner.
Right, right.
So those are the four groups.
Did I miss any, Barb?
Can you think of any that I…
I don’t think so.
I think we covered that. And I’m sure there might be nuances of other experiences that would feed into that. But I think that’s sort of the general compass of what we’re trying. And we think that people will want to be part of this discussion or conversation.
Yeah, absolutely.
Okay, so last thing we’re gonna do, what’s coming up on the show going forward? So most of what we do, I think, will be formatted in various like series of conversations. A lot of podcasts do that. They go through series on different topics.
Now, I’m sure we’ll sprinkle in like one-off conversations about things like current events or things we come across, situations, real-time experiences that we have in our lives, things like that.
But we are planning for our first series of conversations to be about the nature and purpose of the church. And the reason for that is every other conversation we have will flow out of what we come out of that conversation with.
What is the nature and purpose of the church? If you can nail that down, you have a great foundation for going forward and understanding what God wants us to do with our lives in church life.
Yeah, and I think hopefully through that, we will also be able to share not just our own thoughts, but how the scriptures inform that, because we think that that’s such a foundational basis upon which for any individual Christian to figure out how they move forward with their life in Christ.
All right, so we’ll look forward to that.
For now, if you want to reach us, you can email us at mike (at) findinghealthychurch.com.
So that is it for this episode. We’ll see you next time, when we’ll start our next series of conversations.